OCP Workshop 03/27/2013

Philip:  “possession of alcohol” should also include “or other intoxicants”

Sigi:  are we including the back of roses and the wall in this proposal right now?

Ron:  seems like this might be too much to tackle right now – but we can certainly revisit

Gary:  if you are unconscious because of a prescription medication that you are supposed to take, what will happen

Greigh:  who will decide if someone is unconscious because of drugs or alcohol

Ron:  the group felt strongly that it is ultimately up to the staff to make a call

Michael:  will the police be called if someone is belligerent?

Greigh:  right now it is cold out – so someone who is really drunk would be in the building, but what if it is summer and someone is sleeping under a tree?;  is it belligerence followed by unconsciousness

Ron:  seems like generally, we would let someone sleep it off and then have a conversation with the person;  would not be in favor of the police picking up some unconscious guy

Matt:  think that OCP has dealt with this in the past pretty well, but it seems like we have slacked off a bit;  maybe it is time to step it up again;  all in all, this place isn’t meant for people to come beat people up and be belligerent

Sigi:  think we need to be a little more careful about this drinking thing – people in early recovery who are around, we shouldn’t have people passed out in the bathroom or people coming in drunk

Gary:  unconscious outside – if someone was having medical issues because of being passed out because we didn’t do anything – don’t want this

Greigh:  if people are here passed out inside, this can make people feel uncomfortable – looks bad for donors or kids

Ron:  maybe it is a case by case thing;  maybe if the back room is available and we can get them in there, we do;  seems like all of these various situations would be hard to nail down now – maybe we just realize that it is case by case – we should move towards establishing enforcement;  

John:  proposing that we use:  “Any or all of the following will constitute a one week ban for a first offence, and a one month ban for the second offense.  1)  Possession of alcohol (open or closed) or other intoxicants on OCP property;  2) Intoxication  that results in open belligerence; or 3) Intoxication that leads to unconsciousness.  If a person would like to continue to be part of the OCP community after the one month ban, then he/she will have to appear before membership to make such a request, and the membership will decide the next steps.”;  Jared seconds; 9 votes for, 1 vote no, 1 abstain;  no block

Matt:  sees where we are going with this, and other than AA and the breakfast thing, what will we do with people to help them

Ron:  what are positive approaches to dealing with someone struggling with alcohol

Gary:  if you’ve been coming here for 4 years, you need to either get to AA, live at the farm, go to the breakfasts, or something;  at some point, it has to be on the person;  

Philip:  there is the farm, celebrate recovery is starting in a few weeks – seems like there are a lot of options, but someone needs to commit – there are options

Ron:  we have tried multiple times to offer rides to AA;  12 steps has revolutionized our understanding of recovery;  the best thing we could do is recommend AA;  there is a Christian recovery program – celebrate recovery;  lets brainstorm more ways we can help;  

Matt:  just for the record, seems like everyone is speaking to Matt – but if you are someone new here, should you have a one week ban if you have a problem with addiction;  is a new person just going to get a one week ban without even knowing the rules;  are we going to give a person a chance to know what the rules are

Ron:  having discussion before a vote happens is very important – lets not take a lot of time with this concept

Heather:  positive things that can be done – have we ever sat down with a person who has a drinking problem – actually try to talk to them like they are a real person – let them know we want them to be a part of this community and that they are killing themselves;  

Michael:  they used to have someone here who participated in the 12 step thing here at OCP

Philip:  where are we right now?;  

Ron:  we are brainstorming about positive approaches

Ron:  case by case is a key phrase – staff takes in to consideration someone who has never been here before;  hope that this group or the membership will make the rules known to everyone;  this is a public place – you cannot go to the library and just pass out;  

Sigi:  Hannah Love helped work on an orientation group

Gary:  there is a medication, that can help someone stop drinking – csb and rmh have things like this – even the person who comes here everyday for 4 years;

Matt:  trying to get at the positive side for the newcomer who might be an alcoholic

Ron:  alcoholism is a very old problem – no one has been able to figure it out;  have spent lots of time talking with alcoholics and very few have gotten sober;  if you knew how to get alcoholics sober, you would be rich;  very last bullets under teams, we decided to have a recovery/spiritual team who can address this issue from OCP’s perspective – making sure there is an AA book on the shelf, experimenting with AA meetings in the main room, etc;  lets set it aside for now, but this team is something we want;

Gary:  once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic;  

Mark:  can we get back on the topic of enforcement – if we continue to get sidetracked

Ron:  the next rule is “No guns or brandishing or weapons.”

Matt:  sometimes Matt will come from HARTS with a knife in pocket – but this seems ok unless it is being brandished

Ron:  seems like our alcohol rule is a little light to apply to a weapon;  gut thought:  straight to the month

Philip:  with a gun – seems like we need to tell the person first;  brandishing a weapon seems different – anger and seems scary;  

Michael:  if someone pulled a knife on someone, would we automatically call the cops or be happy to have someone leave for a month

Matt:  seems different if someone pulls out a gun;  even a month seems not ok;  you can fight someone or restrain someone with a knife, and a gun is a lot more serious;  if someone comes in a pulls a knife on someone, there should be a serious response – we don’t even know the person or what they are capable of;  

Ron:  seems like if someone has a gun to someone’s head, that is a serious issue;  we talk softly and call the police to try to get the person arrested;  

Sigi:  we need to have a very low threshold concerning brandishing a weapon;  this seems more serious ;

Heather:  agree for the most part with the rule of now;  have a knife and was trying to show Christina – is this brandishing?

Philip:  maybe we should say for the enforcement piece for these rules, we should assume that people know the rules ahead of time so we don’t need to talk about that each time;  seems like the group feels like having a gun or brandishing a weapon both seem like one month offenses;  

Ron:  you can’t brandish a weapon anywhere, so why do we have to go light on someone who should already know;  it is merciful to kick someone out for one month and not call the police

Michael:  what if someone brandishes a weapon or actually gets hit and then defends themselves;

Ron:  if someone is defending themselves, what about that – get kicked out for a month for defending themselves

Michael:  what about someone threatening someone but not actually being physically violent

Alex:  the police wouldn’t expect someone just to lay there who is being hit, but we are not the police and we shouldn’t think like the police;  if we could come up with better ideas, we would, but we have these rules because we can’t always come up with better results – if someone is up for conflict mediation, that seems like a better response

Ron:  seems like Michael’s question is a good one but not addressed through this rule;  these are the rules, and Alex’s points seem a little slippery;  we are being merciful and willing to let people come back

Heather:  heard what Schrag was saying about self defense – there are sometimes when people don’t start a problem and have a problem coming after them;  

Sigi:  wondering about Tom Domonoski – if something illegal happens and we don’t call the police, is it our duty to call the police;  

OCP Workshop 03/20/2013

Ron:  what about enforcement of our decided rules;  one idea in the past was that maybe we could have a sort of judiciary committee to deal with issues that keep coming up;  could a person just be brought to a membership meeting?;  maybe we need to have some discussion about membership meetings;  

Michael:  always one for leniency;  what if someone gets caught here three times;  maybe the first time someone gets caught with alcohol there is some leniency;  

Ron:  seems like we should think in terms of rehabilitative ideas as well as punishments

Jonathan:  maybe we could go rule by rule and talk about consequences

Ron:  current way that we think about alcohol, is a first offense is out for one week, second offense, out for one month, third out until you come back and ask to be let back in;  there is some confusion about someone who has unopened alcohol having a punishment and someone who is drunk everyday has no consequence;  maybe we want to ask someone caught three times to come to the membership

Gary:  what if someone comes back for a third time and gets caught again?;  what happens at that point

Philip:  after a third time, you enter some sort of “case management” that some group here at OCP is in charge of being a part of;  

Ron:  like the idea that the person comes to the membership without many guidelines so that each case can be looked at;  

Michael:  is there any way a person could be banned permanently – never to come back;  maybe someone could have a “sponsor” here at OCP like AA has sponsors;

Sigi:  would like to talk to some of the guys who are really struggling with alcohol and see what they think

Ron:  sigi reminds us that we used to tell people that the Rose’s property was the same as OCP when it comes to drinking;  

Gary:  not having the cops called is pretty lenient – we should have no tolerance with this

Sigi:  if someone drinks, maybe there is some criteria that we create so that someone could get some help and stay around; maybe requiring someone to go to AA or something

Ron: a week doesn’t seem like a big deal, and it lets the newcomer know that there is no tolerance;  how do we make a statement and stick to it for someone that wants to choose an option instead of getting kicked out

Heather:  people know the staff cant catch things all the time;  people are smart enough to hide drinking even on the property;  why not have someone gone for a month who gets caught once?

Sigi:  sort of feeling the no tolerance idea that gary talked about;  

Philip:  about the case management idea, we could talk about this later as it might apply to a person; 

Gary:  can’t force anyone to go to AA;  

Ron:  seems like we are saying that alcohol (open or closed), you get kicked out for a week, and the second time, you are kicked out for a month, and the membership will then decide what happens next – seems like all in favor

Ron:  is there a way to transition to a member run community center so that the staff isn’t responsible to uphold all the rules all the time –

Gary:  if it is a friend, it might be easier to talk to them;  if it is someone you don’t know, it might be harder;  seems like it would be smart to address a staff member first;  

Ron:  have a picture of our membership is a group that has some new authority – to uphold a code of behavior;  

Michael:  two things, what are the legal rights regarding pouring out someone’s alcohol – if someone is drunk on the property but not currently drinking, what does our policy one this look like?

Cat:  people stop in to OCP to have a beer and then leave;  there are lots of spots for people to stop in quickly for a beer and then leave;  

Gary:  maybe there is like a neighborhood watch for alcoholics – a group keeping an eye out for people drinking;  

Ron:  what would it look like if the membership is empowered like a staff;  in the old testament, two people had to witness something in order to bring it to light – maybe members or staff members

Sigi:  thinking about what gary said about no tolerance;  cant go anywhere else in Harrisonburg and be drunk without having someone saying something to you;  

Gary:  seems like telling a staff person about the person drinking is the safest way;

Ron:  is it really the members responsibility to tell a staff person if someone is drinking on the property;  

Mark:  leaning towards the idea of bringing it to a staff person;  a person who is already breaking the rules knowingly, that person isn’t going to care unless it is a staff person;  

Gary:  seems like it a members responsibility to tell a staff person;  

Ron:  what about Rose’s property? – maybe this is too big of a topic to talk about now

Ron:  other issues that have come up are:  very drunk in the building, drunk in the building over and over, and passed out in the building

Gary:  as much as I don’t like waking up in jail hung over, it is safer sometimes than getting hit by a car or getting in a fight

Philip:  the chief of police says that there isn’t enough room and there isn’t enough time to deal with a drunk person

Mark:  it is a matter of degree, if someone is unconscious, you are a threat to yourself if you are incapable of taking care of yourself;  seen people leave here at 2pm who had no business walking around town;  perfectly ok to have the boys in blue come down

Ron:  we aren’t talking about calling the police everytime someone is drunk, but when it is necessary;  

Sigi:  at what point did we change the policy – we have had 5 people who have died of alcoholism;  when is the time to draw the line with alcoholics;  

Ron:  more people die in addiction than get better;  we have also welcomed people here who are alcoholics who have gotten help;  it is hard and a fine line;  how many times can you be passed out or drunk here before getting called in front of the membership;  for the obnoxious drunk – either be quite and sit down, leave, or we will call the police;  can a member just put a topic on the agenda concerning someone being drunk

Philip:  want to nuance sigi’s comment – they died while considered a community member here because we accepted them and other places haven’t accepted them;  

Sigi:  we should identify the people who have a serious problem, we should talk with them

Ron:  had a lot of good friendships with alcoholics – a lot of friendship came out of some kind of mutual love but also a desire NOT to control that person;  maybe as an organization we shouldn’t make a decision about someone who drinks every day but follows the behavior code of OCP;  

Ron:  if you are belligerently drunk here or passed out, it is the same pattern as having alcohol on the property;  

Gary:  how do you talk to someone who is unconscious;  if someone comes here drunk, that is definitely a concern;  an addict wont stop themselves, rather have someone call the police

Crystal:  have learned a lot since being at OCP;  ocp is a very loving place, but if people keep getting another chance, they may never hit bottom, and one maybe needs to hit bottom in order to make a change;  

Teig:  those bathroom doors – if someone passes out in the bathroom, there should be a way to open those doors

Ron:  considering adding to the kicked out for one week, one month thing, that if someone is so intoxicated that they are belligerent or so intoxicated that they are passed out, the same consequences of one week/one month apply

Teig:  how does one define belligerent?

Ron:  seems like the group is feeling like the staff has the ability to make a call about “belligerent”

Mark:  have no problem with someone being here being drunk as long as they know when to shut up;  

Sadie:  don’t think we should be enabling the drunks by letting them be here;  

Gary:  think there are a lot of categories for drunks;  seems like we should have no tolerance for drunks at all

Ron:  seems like no tolerance leads to breathalyzers at the door;

OCP Workshop 03/13/2013

Jonathan:  recommends we table this topic

Ron:  likes that dignity and respect added to anyone being able to participate; 

Philip:  Proposes:  “We seek to build an atmosphere of love, safety, education, spiritual awareness, healing, and fun – a community center where we treat each other with dignity and respect and where we welcome anyone in the world to help or participate.”; seconded by Jonathan;  all in favor

Ron:  now we need to discuss how rules will be enforced;  maybe we have a way to deal with each rule;  maybe we just come up a general way to address issues;  jonathan initially pushed for a judiciary committee;  hope we can have mercy built into our structures;  how do we enforce our motto and our rules

Heather:  maybe we could start with our first rule and make our way down

Ron:  we do have three enforcement policies already in place – alcohol – if you are caught with alcohol on the property, you are kicked out for a week, twice – a month, three times – two months and you have to meet with the director;  also, people have been kicked out of the building for not doing a mediation

Ron:  have heard a criticism for the alcohol rule – sometimes it might be like a game – someone gets busted and then gets kicked out and then comes back;  maybe who can enforce the alcohol issue is something we could talk about;  generally, if there is a judiciary or membership meeting, seems like this would be a last resort – many issues, we would need ways to work with them in the moment;  

Tiffany:  with the alcohol, two warnings and then have the law step in;  

Heather:  what if staff isn’t cutting it anymore – if the staff is too loose;  some things are just loose;  

Matt:  are there going to be rules about people passing out in the bathroom for a while;  

Sigi:  yesterday, cleaning up around the rose’s wall, seems like there is still drinking going on around the property – all of these cans remind sigi about the bad things that people have experienced

Anna:  thoughts on how we deal with people having alcohol on the property – if someone is drinking, gone for a week or whatever;  seems like we might kick someone out for having a sealed container, but then someone can quietly pass out for a while, and then it takes a lot of staff time to deal with it, and that there is no consequence for that;  

Matt:  definitely want to thank people for not driving matt down to jail;  agree that he should have been kicked out;  still willing to go through some process for having to deal with his drunkenness;  

Ron:  understand why alcohol can’t be on the property;  alcohol on the property is a big problem;  always want to have sympathy for alcoholics;  at the end of the day, alcoholics are going to drink alcohol;  if we never let people in who were drunk, seems like we need to make space for people so that they could possibly find hope;  if they are just closed out of community life, maybe they won’t find something to help;  with drunk and belligerent people, three options, sit down and shut up, leave, or the police can come and take a person away;  had a couple people pass out recently, and seems like we should do something to give someone a wake up call;  

Matt:  was going to talk about the idea about a one week AA program;  

Philip:  wants to welcome people who are drunk and intoxicated;  we have a unique farm that we can connect people to;  difficulty comes when the intoxicated person isn’t themselves – hard to know how to enforce things – mediation?;  are we going to wait to do mediation when someone is sober

Heather:  people come here drunk regularly and start fights;  teig is a functional drunk most of the time, but when he starts drinking, he becomes annoying;  there are people who come here drunk and start fights;  drunk people seem to get special privileges;  

Sigi:  not sure if this rule is still in effect, but we used to say if someone was over by roses drinking, it was the same as doing it here at OCP;  are we going to get to that point again where someone cant drink on roses property just as one cant drink here

Ron:  wants to remind us what Mike Farrand has said – “what do we do with the drunks?”;  we probably aren’t going to find a solution to the drunks;  shame can often perpetuate the cycle of addiction;  not sure what to think about this, but it seems like it is mentioned a lot;  maybe we need to be talking about the person who becomes difficult to deal with or the person who comes here drunk regularly;  maybe these are the people we focus on;  

Mark:  don’t want to complicate things, but there are a couple different things we are talking about;  if there is someone here on the property and under the influence, there needs to be a staff response – the other issue is the person who is constantly under the influence;  current on site response – if they don’t constitute a danger to themselves or ocp, and they are willing to be quite, maybe they can stay;  sometimes, when someone is really drunk on special event nights or during movies;  maybe the person who constantly comes drunk needs to be dealt with;  

Sigi:  there was a guy who came here who never did anything, he just sat;  then his PO came and said that it was the longest time in his adult life that he hadn’t been in jail;  

Tiffany:  if someone comes here drunk, they shouldn’t come here;  maybe come back the next day

Matt:  can probably agree that things should happen to a person who gets belligerent;  but not if someone isn’t doing anything;  problem isn’t if people come here drunk, but if someone is causing problems; people coming in here with alcohol need to be dealt with;  

Ron:  interested in Mark’s initial contact concept;  if someone is here drunk, maybe we go talk right away, but then it is hard to talk to someone who is drunk;  something about talking to someone who is drunk right away seems right;  something about losing consciousness seems like something we should deal with;  some people need to just hit rock bottom – if we enable people, this may keep people from getting sober – this may be one of our failures in the past;  

Sadie:  if you come here drunk, we ought to meet you at the door and tell you to come back later;  

John:  talking about the alcoholics who come here, but what about the people who come here intoxicated on drugs, etc. that aren’t using alcohol; are we going to address both of these with the same rules;  

Sigi:  since we are talking so much about alcoholics – maybe we should go to some resources – to a professional – to help us think about this topic;  

Matt:  another thing to think about – people who come here drunk are homeless;  mostly homeless;  what you would be doing is setting rules for the homeless

Ron:  the statement on our wall sets us up for some tension – how can we keep it safe and fun while still reaching out to the alcoholic and drug addict;  wouldn’t want to see us breathalizing and pee screening in order to let people come in;  it is a heck of a lot better now than in the old days;  

Sigi:  would like to ask all these questions to the alcoholics;  maybe identify a few people and ask them these questions;  

Johnny:  been struggling a lot with alcohol – was asked by someone to take some time off;  what we need here is we need more productive thinking – what can we do for the people who want to take a drink as soon as they wake up;  there are 5-10 people sitting outside – maybe people just need something to do to feel productive;  just having something for someone to do – even write out a plan for the day – by the end of the day – how would then end of the day look;  

Philip:  appreciates Johnny being honest and sharing

Sigi:  wonderful idea – maybe there can be a breakfast in the morning – specifically for people who think about drinking first thing in the morning;  

Ron:  likes the idea in general, but some concerns about finding something for someone to do;  some people get sober by becoming alcoholics;  how do you get someone to sit down and write the list of what they want to do each day;  

Heather:  have to agree with what Johnny said – need to stay busy because have been struggling with wanting to drink;  there is also NCP – they open up early;  nick and Rachel sarah have plenty for people to do;  there is a new noon meeting at the club

Ron:  about the farm, have heard there is a real undercurrent of the farm being like slave labor;  most of the work is on the farm – try to keep work to 30-40 hours;  the main focus is recovery;  

Johnny:  have heard a lot of negative things about the farm – do have children and a lovely wife – as far as family, is the farm just for